S1:E14
[00:00:00] Todd Libby: Welcome to the Front End Nerdery Podcast, a podcast about front end development and design. I'm your host Todd Libby. And my guest today is co-founder of Mule Design, speaker and author extraordinaire, Erika Hall. Erika, how are you today?
[00:00:20] Erika Hall: I'm doing very well, actually. Thank you. It's great to be chatting with you.
[00:00:25] Todd: Yeah, it's nice to be chatting as well, on this end. It's been a while since, I guess I think it was Quarantine Book Club was the last time.
[00:00:34] Erika: Yeah. Yeah. That seems like
[00:00:36] Todd: Yeah
[00:00:37] Erika: a whole other era now. Wow.
[00:00:40] Todd: Yeah. Yeah. So why don’t you tell the listeners a little bit about yourself?
[00:00:45] Erika: Oh, oh gosh. I've been, I actually, since this is Front End Nerdery, I will say I started my career as a front end developer, really, if, back when that was like in its little primordial state.
[00:01:04] Todd: Yeah
[00:01:05] Erika: And, and then I got into, design consulting, and I'd been a design consultant for a very, very long time and have co run my own agency for basically the entire 21st century. And it's a good time. And other than that, I'm a, you know, haver of opinions about town.
That's, that's me ride my bike around with my dog and a backpack.
[00:01:29] Todd: Yep
[00:01:30] Erika: That's, that's what I do.
[00:01:25] Todd: Yep. I see some of those, I see a lot of those pictures on Instagram and they're, they're really big. They're really cool pictures. So, I'm going to hop right into the questions here. So how did you get started in your, web development or design journey?
[00:01:42] Erika: Well, I went to a liberal arts college and because nothing is vocational, there's a lot of freedom. And so, I studied Russian and Philosophy and became a Philosophy major. And you know, when you, when you graduated with a Philosophy degree, what are you going to do? Really? You're going to go to law school, you're going to be a barista.
[00:02:14] Todd: Yeah
[00:02:15] Erika: You're going to go on in academia, but I'd always, always been really interested in technology. Like I was a little girl who hung out at radio shack. Right? And I was for whatever I don't even know. And it wasn't til later that I connected the fact that I think it was sort of in the air because two of my uncles’ sold microchips.
So, I think it was just like, that was sort of around, but I was always, I was, I got Omni magazine. I was really into Sci-fi. I was like a super little nerd, but also really into stories and literature and storytelling. So, I did the philosophy thing and then it was a recession, and the web was really just getting started and I was interested in publishing and stuff.
And then after my first, my very first job was at a venture capital investment partnership. I didn't know what that was, but they were just looking for somebody, you know, who would work for cheap and, and would like wear a suit or whatever. And with it was a recession and I had a philosophy degree, so I was like, cool.
I don't know what you do. I guess I'll work with you. Sure. You'll pay me enough to pay rent. Great. And then over the course of my time there, while I sort of like sussed out what the rest of the job market was, and I got this dawning awareness of what they did. They regretted hiring me so hard because I said, wait a second, this is what you do here?
[00:03:49] Todd: Yeah
[00:03:50] Erika: What? Like entrepreneurs come in with a dream. And then you buy that. And then, and that was when founder terms were a lot less friendly than they are now. And so, I, I witnessed a lot of like founder firings, and I'm like, and then you take their dream, and you scale it up and you get rich off of their dream.
And that's interesting to you. Like that's, just making money is interesting to you. What?
[00:04:17] Todd: Yeah
[00:04:18] Erika: Yeah. So, they were happy when I was like, hey, so the web is here now and I'm going to go do that. And they were like, it's been great. It's been great. Yeah. So then when I was there, I just, I started just talking to people. I did the thing, right?
I did the what color is your parachute thing? Where I would just call people up and get in touch with them and say like, hey, I'm interested in, in tell me about your job. Right? And it really, it works. In a, in a weird way. And I, and eventually I talked to people just like asking them about their jobs. And then somebody said, well, we need a contractor here to help out with a little research project.
So weirdly my very first kind of web job was a like doing research, like calling people and asking them, you know, about how they were using emerging web technology. And I did this, and it didn't even occur to me that research was kind of my first job until much later, because I, that was just a short amount of time.
And, cause I was kind of a go getter because I really needed to pay rent. It's amazing. Like that's so motivational because I didn't have a job. Like I quit at a certain point. I just quit the other job and I'm like, I'm just, I have to go do something else now. And, and so the guy who ran that business unit was like, hey, we're really spinning up.
It was a tech publishing company and they said, we're really spinning up internet-y stuff and you seem keen. You want a job? And so, yeah, so they did the thing where I like did informational interviews and had a job created for me. So, I was super lucky.
[00:06:01] Todd: Yeah
[00:06:02] Erika: Super lucky. And then I was in this little business unit that they didn't know.
They're like, we don't know what to do with the web. And, and I just hung out and like in this little group, and I'm sure there were groups like this in companies all around the country. And I just learned to code while they were figuring out what to do.
[00:06:22] Todd: Yeah
[00:06:23] Erika: Like I had my BBEdits open. I had my, my Perl, you know, I'd like practice learning Perl while webpages were loading.
Like that, that was, that was the, it gave you time to be like, oh, I'm going to test this little script while I wait for the page to load because we had modems.
[00:06:41] Todd: Yes, we did.
[00:06:42] Erika: Yeah. And that's, I was sort of off, off of my career at that point. And I was like, oh, thank God. I have a job. This is cool.
[00:06:50] Todd: Yeah
[00:06:51] Erika: I have health insurance. This is cool. Wow.
[00:06:34] Todd: So, you know, speaking of research, I was going to get into the couple, the two books, you have. The first one being Just Enough Research, which is now in its second edition. The changes are there’s from what I understand. I haven't been able to read the second, the second, edition yet, but the changes are a new chapter on surveys. And is there anything else that's new in the book?
[00:07:27] Erika: The chapter on surveys is really the, the biggest change. I mean, it’s, it's thicker, overall. I went back when I went back through it, when I realized that, the book was still useful and I just, I really wanted to update it because it was like five years old when I decided to update it.
I, I went back through it, and I was pleased because, you know, you write a book and then you immediately put whatever was in the book out of your mind, because it was a traumatic process. And I went back, and I was pretty happy with how well it held up, I think, because so much of it is about foundational principles and I'm, I'm super tool agnostic.
And, and I just really wanted to give folks a foundation. That hadn't changed and so updating, updating the parts that were that referenced, anything that was obsolete. And, and of course, you know, more like mobile stuff was even, I don't know it was, so it was a lot of little updates and then it was, adding the chapter on surveys, which I left out because in the first edition, I thought people should not be doing surveys unless they know what they're doing.
Like surveys are a really advanced technique, but because we live in the real world and there are so many survey platforms and it's so easy to run surveys, I'm like, well, I guess, I guess I'd better write that chapter. And yeah. So, the whole thing was basically, I mean, I went through and with my editors, like really did a very thorough rewrite, like touched basically everything, but a lot of the core, a lot of the core, if something was good it stayed, right?
If it worked, it stayed. so, I added a lot. It was a lot of back and forth of please, we have to make your book less thick and, and they were like, cut out my jokes and I put my jokes back in and real fight for my jokes.
Yeah. And so, Yeah, so that's really it. So, you can, so everything in that book that made it because it's, so it's a, it's a thick little book. Everything in, there was something that was subject to a lot of, a lot of vetting, I would say because I had to really justify really hard to get it to that point.
Yeah. So that's sort of basically like an update than new material, but I mean, it really does. It covers a lot of different areas and so, yeah. Oh, and I totally just ripped out instead of mentioning any tools at all, because there are so many tools and platforms that are research specific, that was like, I'd say one of the biggest changes from when I first wrote it, that I was just like, use whatever works for you, because it's, it's basically impossible to recommend anything just because there are so many options.
[00:09:43] Todd: Yeah, there are. So, before I read the book, the, the first one, when I bought it, I was always under the assumption because, doing the job that I do and accessibility, I ha I do, I do a fair share of research and I'm thinking, oh, it's just looking up stuff and just throwing it. But there's so much more to research than just looking up things and, and reading it and, and implementing that, or, you know, using that knowledge.
So, when I was going to ask is how important is research and what more is there to it than just looking things up on Google, for instance?
[00:10:28] Erika: Well, you know, it's funny you say that because I think a lot of people who are very enthusiastic about research, forget the power of looking things up on Google, because there's so much out there.
So, whenever I hear people say, oh, we don't have time or money for research. I'm like, have you looked to see what's actually what's available. So, so I'd say like research, if, if you're solving a problem, like, or making a decision, I would say research is fundamental and essential, except I would maybe cause the word research really trips people up cause when you hear that word, you think that the output is some sort of report or some sort of new insights that no one has ever had before.
Like there's this academic standard that I think people have in their minds that prevents them from doing research. But just like you mentioned, Google, the reason Google is so valuable is because we as just people in the world who use the internet are doing research constantly, but we don't really, we don't even think of it cause it's so easy.
You know, if you're planning a trip. If you're making any decision at all, if you're deciding what to have for dinner tonight, you will do research and you'll do different types of research. You will talk to people; you will look things up on the internet. You will, you know, sometimes you'll want a description and sometimes you'll want a measurement.
You know you might be moving into a new area and say, oh, what's the pr, what's the average price per square foot of an apartment or a house? That's, that's like doing quantitative research, but we don't think about it because we just do it. But then you go into the workplace where research has all this baggage around it.
And it's like, oh no, we're going to suddenly our organization is going to invest months of people's time and hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. And, but we're not going to learn anything. And that's ridiculous.
[00:12:32] Todd: Yeah
[00:12:33] Erika: Cause if somebody went to you and said, you can't, you're not allowed to use a search engine anymore in life, you'd be like, I can't live. How do I live?
[00:12:42] Todd: Exactly. That's, it's become a norm for people now.
[00:12:47] Erika: Yeah
[00:12:48] Todd: Especially the people that you know, we’re working in web design or development or anything else it's, that's a norm. So yeah, that's I never really thought that I never really thought of that. So yeah, that was great.
[00:13:02] Erika: People don’t.
[00:13:03] Todd: Yeah.
[00:13:04] Erika: Its funny people don't just yeah, because it's such a scary word, so it's always like, oh, we don't have time, we don't have money.
And it's like, this is it, it’s, it's a thing you do. And it's a set of skills you have. If you're not worried about the organizational politics of engaging in something called research.
[00:13:23] Todd: Right. Right. So, one thing that I, when I was reading the first book and reading through it, one thing that I kind of, it kinda hit, hit, hit me. And I never knew it. There's a difference between research questions and interview questions. So, can you tell listeners what those different, a little bit about what those differences may be?
[00:13:46] Erika: Oh yeah, that's, that's a great question because it took me a while to really understand how poorly understood that concept was. I was running a research workshop for maybe for maybe three years with that, an activity around that as part of the workshop until I really, really, it got through to me, whoa, this is poorly, poorly understood.
So, the research question and, and I think the most important part of doing research is being really clear on what you need to know. And again, if you're making a decision in your life, people get super clear about what they need to know. If you're forming a query for Google people know what they need to know, but it's, it's like, what do you, what do you actually need to know?
Do you want to know how people are currently accomplishing some task in the world? Do you, do you want to know like what the distribution of a certain type of device is in the population? Do you want to know how many people are still using older hardware? Is that what you most need to know? Do you want to know what the, the world is, is like for people with you know, visual impairments or who use assistive technology?
Like, that's your question. But that, but then once you know that, then you can say, well, how do I find that out? Is it by talking to people? And then, and then you might ask people questions. But the questions you ask somebody, and a good real world example is, we worked with, a, a, a state tourism office and they wanted to understand how people, budgeted and spent money on vacations.
But if you go to somebody and you ask them directly, so how do you spend money on vacations? Like, right like that they will make up a story that makes it sound like they're so organized, right?
[00:15:47] Todd: Yeah.
[00:15:48] Erika: Oh, of course I set aside money and I decide my spending priorities in advance and that's total lies. Right?
[00:15:54] Todd: Yeah. Right.
[00:15:55] Erika: Because the real truth is like, you know, you have a vacation budget in your mind, and once you're on vacation, you're like, whatever, you know, this is like, I'm in a special context. And so, the actual interview question would be something like, oh, walk me through your last vacation from when you first had the idea to when you got home.
Walk me through that process and, and you don't, and then you can ask them, like, if they mentioned spending money, you're like, oh, tell me, like, tell me more about that. And you don't ask you find out why, but you don't ask them why and you find out what their priorities are, but you don't ask somebody, oh, what are your priorities?
Like it's, it's like called revealed preferences and revealed behavior. Because if you ask somebody directly. It, it, it's like the same reason that we're learning that people are terrible eyewitnesses, right? People are unreliable reporters of their own behavior. And so, you have to find ways if your question is about people's behavior, you might ask them a very different question verbatim when you're talking to them to find that out, or your research question might be something that you don't even do interviews for.
But there's so much confusion because people hear research and they immediately think interviews even that is like a workhorse topic, but it's not necessarily the right thing to do. And you won't know the right thing to do until you're clear on your question.
[00:17:23] Todd: Gotcha. Yeah. So is there a, and this is, I guess the question just popped up in my mind.
What is your favorite part of, or what is the best thing about research in your opinion?
[00:17:38] Erika: The best thing it's like learning things is fun. And I think
[00:17:42] Todd: Right.
[00:17:43] Erika: I think there's so much tension around, like getting budget or permission or needing to do research and feeling like you don't look like an expert.
People forget that. Like, why are we in this job? Like, why don't we work with data design and technology and things like that. Cause it's, we're always learning. Right.
[00:18:02] Todd: Yeah
[00:18:03] Erika: There's always a new technique or a new tool or a new service or new product you're working on. So, we're in this business because we like learning and it's fun.
It is fun to learn things. And it's fun to learn things about people. That's the whole reason we do this stuff is because we're solving problems for people.
[00:18:16] Todd: Right
[00:18:17] Erika: And just so that, I mean, that's really the best part. And I think if you're not having fun doing research, it, it's like, something's wrong. Like you, it should be fun.
[00:18:33] Todd: Yeah
[00:18:34] Erika: And I feel like we've kind of lost that cause, cause it makes your work so much more meaningful. Right? I, I'd say, if you're, you know, if you've learned things about people and you know, you're like, oh, I've, I've learned that this particular interaction is difficult for people. So now I can make it easier.
And all of a sudden you feel, you're not just like sitting there coding and hoping that like it's doing something for somebody out there in the world.
[00:19:05] Todd: Yeah. Yeah, and, and that's a good point you brought up, you know, learning, cause I, I, and I haven't been sticking to this lately, but I, I wrote down that learn one new thing every day during the work week and even carry that into the weekend when I'm relaxing or something. Yeah, that's a good point. So, and there's Rupert right there.
[00:19:30] Erika: Yeah, he wanted, he wanted up on the lap here he is.
[00:19:34] Todd: A cameo. There he is.
[00:19:35] Erika: There he is.
[00:19:36] Todd: So, the other book, you have Conversational Design. See all my books are in storage, so I wish I'd been able to go through that before I, I w I talked to you today, but I grabbed a couple things off the, A Book Apart website. So, it says, how do we make digital systems feel less robotic and more real? So how do we do that?
[00:20:01] Erika: How do we do that? So, it, it's by really starting from understanding everything. It's like, everything is understand people. And, the reason, the reason I wrote this book, like my first conference talks and, were about the importance of using like conversational language and interfaces and just the importance of natural language and interfaces, just even on webpages, making it sound like humans wrote it because if you look at a lot of the web it sounds just like dry, corporate, formal. And it's so inefficient, right? As opposed to saying something really directly there's, there's all this written language. And so, if you really look at how people interact with each other and, and how they interact with the world and what they need from the world without reference to any technology, then you can say, oh, how do we, how do we solve that need in terms of just a human interaction?
Because I think especially once we got to the point where we could have what people think of as conversational systems, you know, that the chat bots, the, you know, the Google Homes and the Alexa’s and things like that. Ironically, the design was really technology first. Like, oh, we can store like all this data in the cloud, and we can have machine learning systems and all this stuff.
And it, and these systems, especially the ones that first, when they first launched were ironically really, really hard to use, even though they were so-called conversational, they were harder to use than just a good website. A good website can, can feel really conversational because it's like interacting with you and it's fast and there's this give and take.
And there are all these principles that make conversation work. And that's what I talk about in the book. And a lot of so-called conversational systems don't follow the deeper principles of conversation. It's just on the surface. Oh, it looks like you're texting. It looks like you're, you're, you know, you're, it sounds like you're talking.
But they're really failing to be conversational. And they're fa so the humans still have to do extra work to make it seem like you're having a reasonable conversation with a home speaker. Cause if you really step back and this is the, an exercise idea, that's really fun is you take a scenario, where you're trying to solve a problem for somebody in the world.
And you're like, what's the, what do they really want? And what's the easiest way to, to help them in that scenario? And you might find that it's not a technological solution at all. And I think a lot of organizations don't do this because they think, oh, how can we fit our technology into people's lives as opposed to, oh, how do we really solve the problem?
And what technology helps us with that? It's like flipping it. And this, it just got really bad with these, with these systems that are so much like I use Bank of American and Bank of America their agent is called Erika, which is like extra upsetting to me. And it's, it's I use it as an example in my talks because it, I, they did it, yeah, for reasons.
I would just much rather have. I use online banking all the time. I would rather have good information architecture and a really fast like banking system than sit there and have this give and take. I don't need a give and take with a bot to learn my balance. I want to like click on a thing and have a display my balance and click on something that's like show balance, transfer money.
That's stuffs all super-fast. Texting, having a chat about that is not super-fast, but then there are other times like customer service thing where it's, it's really, really good.
[00:23:53] Todd: Yeah
[00:23:54] Erika: You know, when I first started using online banking, it was very, very early and I would tell that to my bank.
[00:24:00] Todd: Yeah
[00:24:01] Erika: And that was great. That was all. Cause what do you need from banking? What you need is like, you know, here's a number there's you need like maybe a list of transactions with amounts. You need us, it's a simple command, like transfer money should be, it's a really simple command stuff like that.
[00:24:18] Todd: Yeah
[00:24:19] Erika: And I think that all gets lost. When you start thinking of all the fancy technology you lose, what actually makes things, makes things easy for humans.
[00:24:28] Todd: Yeah, that reminds me of my bank. Cause my banks the same way as it's, it’s there's too much.
[00:24:36] Erika: It's too much. Cause it, yeah. Cause they, they want to have a story to tell and it's like really what people need from their banks is you just, it's just moving numbers around.
[00:24:48] Todd: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's.
[00:24:50] Erika: Yeah. That’s it.
[00:24:52] Todd: That's I, I mean, all I want to do, and I guess this goes to pretty much any other site that I'm on. When I see that little pop up come up, hi I'm so-and-so, I'm your virtual assistant. I go away just go away. I don’t want to deal with it.
[00:25:07] Erika: Go away, yeah. Weirdly the place that that's not being used more, like I think at this point, telephone support should be.
Like the exception, that should be such an escalation point. Like why do I have to ever wait in a phone queue? Because it's so easy to triage and it's easy to multitask. Like you can't multitask that easily while you're waiting. There is no, I, I never feel my life force drain faster than when I'm in a telephone hold queue
[00:25:41] Todd: Yep
[00:25:42] Erika: But it would be great if they that's a great place for like a bot. What's your problem? Like here is it one of these five potential problems? Great. Okay. And then you've got somebody on the other end who can, who can be in like 10 chats simultaneously, probably, and really help people very efficiently while everybody
[00:26:00] Todd: Yep
[00:26:01] Erika: is like multitasking doing other things like that's great. And then if it's like, oh, you actually do need to talk to somebody. Great. We'll have that person call you right back. Why aren't system? I'm sure. I know there are all these legacy reasons why systems aren't designed like that,
[00:26:17] Todd: Yeah
[00:26:18] Erika: but it's like, that's a great, you know, and I know they're
[00:26:21] Todd: Yeah
[00:26:22] Erika: coming online, but it's just, it blows my mind that being on hold on the phone is still a thing at all.
[00:26:32] Todd: Yeah, that actually, so when I was booking a flight to the conference, I'm going to next week I live, and this is just me being absentminded. I booked the wrong city. I booked a flight to New Orleans instead of Atlanta. So, I needed to go back and change that. So that the site that I used, they had that, you know, oh, we have 18 different ways to help you on the site. And we want to bombard you with a virtual assistant. But when I when I called the 800 number, I had an hour and 40 minute wait on the phone. Luckily it was only barely over an hour, and I had nothing to do at the time.
[00:27:22] Erika: Oh!
[00:27:23] Todd: So, but yeah, that's, that's the kind of thing that's like, they can get a virtual assistant in your face right away. Why can't that carry over to what you said,
[00:27:35] Todd: Yeah
[00:27:36] Erika: the phone queue.
[00:27:38] Erika: Yeah. Yeah. And, and tell them what your issue is. And they say, oh, you're going to have to talk to an agent. An agent will call you back. Like these systems exist and some people have them, like,
[00:27:47] Todd: Yes
[00:27:48] Erika: they, they just call you back.
[00:27:48] Todd: Yes
[00:27:49] Erika: Like that is
[00:27:52] Todd: Yeah
[00:27:53] Erika: like, figure that out
[00:27:53] Todd: Yeah
[00:27:54] Erika: because it exists. And that is such a huge. Everybody's always worried about like the next new fancy thing. And it's like fix, fix these pain points because those
[00:28:05] Todd: Right
[00:28:06] Erika: are the things that are meaningful to paying customers and, and really like save people's times and, and lives and, and stuff like that. And that's what they'll talk about. They'll say like, oh, I had to change a flight and it was like super easy.
[00:28:25] Todd: Yeah. Yeah. And to, to be fair, this, this, this website that I went to, they do have that system in place where they will call you back. But me being me, I was freaking out going oh my God. I gotta get this taken care of as soon as possible. Cause I don't want to go to New Orleans when
[00:28:41] Erika: Oh, yep
[00:28:42] Todd: I need, when I need to go to Atlanta. So
[00:28:45] Erika: I, I came so close to getting a ticket to Lexington instead of Louisville once. Yeah. For a friend's wedding for cause I'm like cities in Kentucky. They're all, they're all the same. So fun fact fun fact in America, if you're buying a plane ticket, you have 24 hours of backsies.
Those are the rules. So,
[00:29:03] Todd: Yeah
[00:29:04] Erika: That's, that's, I don't know if everybody knows that, but you can always like change or cancel in, in 24 hours.
[00:29:13] Todd: I found that out probably what? It might've been it was in within a week of me doing that, where I found out that you know I didn't need stress over that, but you know,
[00:29:26] Erika: It’s so stressful.
[00:29:27] Todd: Yes
[00:29:28] Erika: Travel planning.
[00:29:28] Todd: Yes, yes, it is.
[00:29:29] Erika: is so, and I think, especially now, when we're maybe a little more out of practice, it's like, yeah, I was,
[00:29:34] Todd: Yes.
[00:29:35] Erika: I just had one,
[00:29:35] Todd: Yeah.
[00:29:36] Erika: one trip this year and it's, it's so especially when, when the numbers are changing and you're like, is this spontaneous? Is this suddenly going to cost me way more money?
And now the airlines, everything's an ad-on and I, I try to not, and I know it's the, it’s the travel tangent, but, you know, I, I try not to be too annoyed because if you look in real terms, it's really cheap to fly
[00:30:00] Todd: Yeah.
[00:30:01] Erika: and it's really safe. It's super safe and super cheap to get from point a to point B in this day and age, like I know things are shaky in the, in the COVID times, but the, I, they should put that message in front of you while they're nickel and diming you and saying like, oh, would you like a seat with an armrest? That's an extra $5. And you're like, wow. But then, but then just go back and say like, oh, fly across the country in 1970 was $2,000 or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:30:34] Todd: So, you said you're working on another book?
[00:30:39] Erika: Yeah. it's been, you know, it's, it's well, I won't say it's been slow going it's, I mean, it hasn't been going, yeah, it all started, I would say in like 2018 or 20, 2018, 2019. I definitely did the talk in 2019. I really started thinking about the connection between stories and value and thinking about user experience design and how, the way that a lot of designers think and talk about business value is super incorrect.
I'll just get to the chase, because designers, aren’t taught at some really core, I would say economic and business principles. And, and so I, I looked at this and this set of issues and I, I wrote this big, long post and I wrote this talk. And so, the working title for the book is, the business model is the grid because it's about like, instead of the visual design grid, that graphic designers are used to the, the system, the invisible system that really constraints design is how value is exchanged.
Right. And that sounds kind of wonky, but it's actually, just like research is like asking questions to Google every day. It's really understandable. And I think designers are just like missing a set of concepts that would really help them understand the role of their work. And not be so on the defensive, because I feel like a lot of designers are really on the defensive with regard to business value and like, oh, we've got to prove this.
And, and, and I feel like a lot of the ways people are talking about it are inaccurate. And so, I want to help with that. So, I've been doing a lot of like research and stuff for that this year. A little getting to the writing, getting to the writing part.
[00:32:41] Todd: Yeah, so I guess when I heard business models, I was like, oh, you know, that’s no, there are good business models out there, but I don't think we see a lot of them. We see more of the bad ones that are thrown in our face, like certain websites that I won't name, but I think we all know, you know, a few of them.
What are some good business models that stand out to you? Do you know that, you know, is there, are there any? You know, I'm sure there are.
[00:33:15] Erika: There, there absolutely are.
And, and it's actually really easy to tell if you're working with a good business model or a bad business model. It's like, if, if what, what makes the business money is actually good for the customer, if those, goals and interests are aligned, that's a, that's a good business model. For example, and you're, and you're not, and you don't have the externalities, right?
You don't have other harms that you're doing that, like, cause a lot of things, now we're so hooked on convenience. And so, you can't say just what like feels good to interact with. It actually has to be healthy in like the broad sense, like, oh, if I keep using this service, it's a, it's a bet, it's a genuine benefit to me.
Let's see. I'm trying, I’m trying to think there, I mean, there are good ones, like there plenty, there's plenty of software, right? That I subscribe to. That's fine. And it's a really clear, and so when you talk about exchange of value, if it's like, oh, I pay a certain amount of money. and I get access to the software and the software is I use, it's a tool.
It's like, it's like now we subscribe to tools. We used to own them. We now subscribed to them.
[00:34:37] Todd: Yeah.
[00:34:38] Erika: And if it's something that like helps me in my daily life and I'm paying enough for them to make a profit and they're supplying something that's really useful for me and doesn't have harms. That's a fine business model.
I think things get, when you get these multi-sided marketplaces, right? The things like the ride share services where, or like ride hailing, cause you're not actually sharing, where the problem is that, you know, in order to give me a ride at a, like the, the, the prices are really not obvious. And in order to give me a ride at the price I want to pay, you have to take investment from unsavory sources to subsidize the ride.
In which case it's not a business. Or you have to hide the true costs of being a driver from the driver. That's a terrible business model. Right?
[00:35:30] Todd: Yeah.
[00:35:31] Erika: A good business model is something where you, you provide something of value and get value in return. And there are plenty. Like I go like to Cliff's Variety Store here, and I feel like any business where you feel like, I feel super happy giving my money to these people.
And I feel it's all the workers are well paid. Like I go to the Alamo Draft House to see a movie I'm like take all my money. Right?
[00:35:55] Todd: Right.
[00:35:56] Erika: They provide a great service. They charge for it. They charge a not insignificant amount of money for it. And that's great. You know, it's like, like marketplaces are the whole reason why people come together.
Right. And so, it's fine. So, I want designers to also think that it's fine to make money.
[00:36:15] Todd: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:36:16] Erika: But you have to make money in an ethical way. And the problem is that once an organization becomes publicly traded, once they go public. Then what you're really doing is shareholder centered design. And it's good to be aware of that and what that means because shareholder value and customer or user value might divert.
And I don't think designers are talking about this enough because maybe you can't directly control it, but if you're aware of it, you can contribute to designing business models that are more ethical.
[00:36:54] Todd: So, getting down to the end of the questions, there's two questions that I wanted to really ask, that I’m very, I guess I can't even think of the word now. I just lost it, but tell me about the Atari game system, because I can relate to that.
[00:37:14] Erika: Yeah. That, yeah, so I, I told you I was a nerdy child and there was a point where I was like, I would like to learn how to program now. And again, not, well, I kinda know, like, because I am ancient.
When I was a small child, we actually did like a programming exercise using punch cards. So, I, I've done punch card programming. I am an ENT. I am basically an ENT, but I'm going to learn how to program. And so, when it came time to make our, our Christmas lists, you know, going through the Sears wish book and all that, that real gen X thing, we all did
[00:37:52] Todd: Yep.
[00:37:53] Erika: I was like, I would like, like seriously, like Atari computers, like they made computers and I'm like, I would like a computer I'd like to learn a program. And then Christmas morning rolls around and there's a box under the tree and I open it up or I get it and I'm like, sweet. This is, this is a like computer shaped box. And I open the paper and it’s, it's an Atari 2,600, it's a game console.
And I was like, hot tears, hot, angry tears. I was so pissed. I was like, what? My family just wants me to like play video games. Like how tragic is that? That I was the child that was like, give me the extra homework. That is more fun for me. I was that kid right. Super annoying. Yeah, so I, I tried to fix my face before we did the big family get together.
So I wasn't, cause I was like, I was angry, and I was just like, they're like, how did you like the Atari we got you. And I was like, it's a game system, it’s passive entertainment. Oh no I have a cramp. So then for my birthday, a, a few months later I got a, I got a Commodore and I started to learn basic on that.
I was like, thank you for this.
[00:39:12] Todd: Yeah. That's where I learned. I wanted a Commodore and I ended up getting, what did they get me? They got me, they got me, oh, they get me the Odyssey. Remember the Odyssey game console?
[00:39:26] Erika: Yeah.
[00:39:27] Todd: They got me that.
[00:39:28] Erika: Wow. Not even at 90 minutes. Sorry.
[00:39:30] Todd: We thought it was a computer. It’s just like and I was
[00:39:36] Erika: Tough. This is like the lesson. I feel like parents have really, gotten like, I, I think especially it's so it's so easy to just buy everything.
[00:39:45] Todd: Yes.
[00:39:46] Erika: Instantly now supply chains aside. I feel like parents have really gotten the specify specificity message about things that maybe, you know, we all have that as a child, like for a birthday or something, you ask for something and you get something like it, or the cheaper version or the generic version of the wrong brand.
[00:40:04] Todd: Yeah.
[00:40:05] Erika: And everybody, like every middle-class American child has that like, ah,
[00:40:15] Todd: Yup, yup. That was
[00:40:15] Erika: I mean it’s like
[00:40:16] Todd: That was my father. Always had to be the, the, the name brand or the generic thing, or the thing that the, the thing you'd find out of the back of a Buick, maybe, you know,
[00:40:26] Erika: Yes, we all have, we all have those stories. Yeah, so it was all fine. And then, and then it was funny because my second, the second sort of Webby job I had the company I worked for started a little kind of internal startup around online communities, like before social networks and their prototype was, for, like video and computer game, like gamer people, enthusiasts, people who played games, gamer people, and, and they said, Hey, you're good at people and stuff or whatever.
They're like, you're going to be the person who kind of runs the community
[00:41:00] Todd: Okay
[00:41:01] Erika: Like, cause there were other people doing the design and the technology and they were, they said, you're going to be a, you're going to be in charge of kind of nurturing this community and what it amounted to was getting paid to play a lot of video games.
A lot of, I got paid to play a lot of resident evil and yeah. And I just, I laughed. I'm like, this is great. I went to E3 a couple times.
[00:41:27] Todd: Oh wow, yeah.
[00:41:28] Erika: Yeah.
[00:41:29] Todd: That’s cool.
[00:41:29] Erika: It was, it was fine while they figured things out. And I really got to see like the power of online community. But the problem, and also the problem of online community is that because they, they eventually had to close it down and, oh, that was, that's a whole other thing.
But I, I really got to see that to see how technology could facilitate real relationships. Like people really formed a lot of friendships on this, but the problem and the reason they shut it down. Is it going back to what we were just talking about? What's good for people. It is not a moneymaker.
[00:42:01] Todd: Right
[00:42:02] Erika: Like they could not figure out, even though there was this community, they couldn't really figure out how to turn a healthy little thriving community into a revenue source. You've got to start doing, dicey stuff if to get that scale. and then it stops being good. Like we all remember those of us who were in the early internet, remember all our little communities.
And I think, I think a lot of this is happening on Discord. Now I'm getting the sense that people like the healthy little communities, I really are really happening on Discord.
[00:42:35] Todd: Yeah
[00:42:36] Erika: So that's cool to hear about, and of course we're all on like the Twitters and crap, but, but yeah,
[00:42:40] Todd: Yeah
[00:42:41] Erika: so that's my, that's my journey from being angry at video games, to, to coming back around to really appreciate them.
[00:42:48] Todd: Yeah. I can relate to that. And the last question before we get into the last three questions that I have is I got to know. How was the last batch of lobster rolls I sent?
[00:43:02] Erika: I mean fantastic. Like it's such a, like you will appreciate that. It's such a treat, yeah, with the special butter. That's very good. Very good. So, thank you. Thank you for that.
[00:43:12] Todd: Yeah, you’re welcome. I did manage to, I, I, I opened up the freezer and an Its Its had fallen in down onto the bottom. So, I managed to find an Its Its from when you sent me.
[00:43:26] Erika: They're so good. Right?
[00:43:28] Todd: Yeah, oh I know, yeah. And
[00:43:29] Erika: Reasonable cuisine exchange.
[00:43:32] Todd: Yeah. Yes. And so, when I get out here, and that was at the end of August, I had, my partner had, ordered a bunch of them and had them delivered here. So, there was a bunch of them waiting for me here. And it was, it was great. Cause I was like, yes, I had those, and I had those, and I remembered those, and they were all good so, it was, it was great.
[00:43:56] Erika: So, so good, yeah. The funny thing is what I went to because I grew up in Los Angeles and went to college, in new England. And when I came home at the end of my freshman year coming home for the first time, I was going through Logan airport and right before the gate, they had a lobster tank where you could just like, and I'm like, that's funny.
And so, I was like running of course, late to get on my plane, but it was literally right before the, the, the gate and I run up and I was like, could I just get, like, I got two live lobsters to bring home as gifts to fly with. I'm like welcome to like death row air, you know, it felt a little weird, but it was a funny thing, like to come home from school in New England to be like, I brought you living lobsters from Logan airport. So yeah.
[00:44:47] Todd: I did that. cause I went back to see my parents, not too long ago. And I went back because I had stopped at a donut shop where my cousin works and brought back a dozen donuts the home, you know, the homemade kind.
Not the, not the Dunkin kind, but, yeah, that was, that was, I'm bringing, I had, it was like guard them at all costs kind of thing. So, yeah. so, the last three questions I have are questions that I ask of everybody that I have on the podcast. So, the first one is, what about what these days excites you and keeps you excited in what you do?
[00:45:29] Erika: Let's see, gosh, I, I mean, it's still, there's still so much there. Like, it really gets easy to get nostalgic for like, well, there were 10 of us on the internet and there were no ads or anything.
[00:45:49] Todd: Yeah
[00:45:50] Erika: But I, but I think the fact that there is so much good that's there in different ways. It's like Tik Tok is, is cool and amazing. Like there's still so much on, you know YouTube and there, and people are still writing.
And I think the fact that like the good part is that so many people can directly get their message out. And I still think that's a good thing.
[00:46:20] Todd: Yep
[00:46:21] Erika: The bad thing that I think we're dealing with right now is the fact that money, the most money seems to be made from appealing to the worst part of human nature.
[00:46:38] Todd: Yeah
[00:46:39] Erika: That's, that’s where we are. It's like, you can make money doing the good thing and helping do the good thing, but you can make the most money during the bad thing. And that's just, it's just true.
[00:46:48] Todd: Yep
[00:46:49] Erika: So, if you want to make the most money, if that's your goal and not like making money while also doing, doing this other thing, you make the most money doing bad things and putting out toxic messages and getting people really freaked out.
So that's not good, but the good part is that if you teach people again, if you teach people how to ask questions, if you teach people how to critically evaluate media, if you help people form positive relationships and friendships online, like look at quarantine book club, look at
[00:47:26] Todd: Yeah
[00:47:27] Erika: all the people we hung out with. Like that was great.
[00:47:31] Todd: Yeah
[00:47:32] Erika: It wasn't about getting rich, but I guess, I guess zoom people are making money, facilitating some of this stuff, et cetera. So that's still there. So, I think we're, more in this moment of reckoning and I think a lot of people are really reckoning with, oh wait, maybe we shouldn't value what we're doing in terms of the market cap. Right? Maybe we should value it in terms of how it's actually helping us, you know, do something good for various other values of good.
[00:48:09] Todd: Right, right. Yeah. So, if there were one thing that you could change about the web that we know today, what would that be?
[00:48:18] Erika: I mean it's what do you do? We need, we need regulation.
[00:48:22] Todd: Yeah
[00:48:23] Erika: That's the, that's the thing I think, because I think there's been this myth and again, like it goes back to the power of storytelling. There's been this myth that business on the internet is somehow totally different from other sorts of business. And like, there are no rules because we have to let it grow or else, you'll quash innovation.
That's garbage, that's garbage. We need, we need taxation and regulation as, as the check to all of this. Like, look, people have been able to do people have been able to grow their companies. People have been able to concentrate a tremendous amount of wealth. It's just time to get a little bit more balanced and to say, yeah, this stuff is unsafe and toxic.
And this is the story of every industry, right? Like there used to be radium in like alarm clocks and asbestos in milk or whatever, I'm making that up, you know, and people would make money by, by and, and, and, you know, we used to have a lot of, we still, well, this is still an issue with the pollution and et cetera, et cetera.
And if you think of the fact, if you think of internet based businesses or, or businesses that, that do a lot of work on the internet, if you think of the bad human interactions as a form of pollution, you're like, okay, we gotta, we gotta have some clean air act for the internet kind of thing. Cause that it's a by-product, right?
A lot of this bad stuff is a by-product and you could, and yeah, they're going to be a little bit less profitable in the same way that like, if you've got to run a clean business, if you've, if your job site is in compliance with OSHA, Yeah, it's, you're going to have other costs, but you'll still make money.
And I think we just have to have that mindset of, you know, I, I, I feel like, like a lot of, people who have the power to, to regulate or to start advocating for regulation have been cowed by this idea of like, oh, but if it's not complete freedom, you're going to stifle growth. And it's like, okay, we're at the point where we have harms, and we need to regulate.
And so that's, that's what I’d change. And still let people try things, but you should like your business shouldn't only be profitable because there's a body count.
[00:50:49] Todd: Yeah
[00:50:50] Erika: Not cool.
[00:50:54] Todd: Or maybe taking that. When I think of a certain company that has just announced, they change their name and logo, that kind of deal, you know, so
[00:51:07] Erika: But that's a tiny Phillip, Phillip Morris is Altria for the same reason.
[00:51:17] Todd: Yeah.
[00:51:17] Erika: Yeah
[00:51:18] Todd: So, the last question is, what is your favorite part of front end development or design you'd really like to nerd out over, or it could be anything, you know, related to UX or whatnot.
[00:51:31] Erika: Yeah, I, I, I mean I nerd out about the people, you know.
[00:51:36] Todd: Yeah
[00:51:374] Erika: Cause that, cause that's, that's what it's, that's what it's all about is like, people are, so people are like, if you, as systems, if you think about the other side is the systems that interact with the systems we design and how they have all these relationships and ways of interacting.
People are just super interesting. So, I can nerd out about people all the time because the other stuff is cool. But I don't, and I that's where, that's where I started my career and nerding out, but I, I feel like, like humans are just super interesting and you and I just nerd out about them.
[00:52:13] Todd: Yeah, I do a lot of people watching when I'm out on the weekend or something, it’s just
[00:52:18] Erika: So interesting.
[00:52:19] Todd: Yeah
[00:52:20] Erika: Look at the shoes. Look at people's shoes that tells you everything about people.
[00:52:25] Todd: Yeah.
[00:52:25] Erika: Yeah.
[00:52:27] Todd: So, I like to close out the podcast with my guests, letting the listeners know what they currently have going on and where people can find you online. So, I’ll let you have the floor.
[00:52:37] Erika: Oh thanks. Oh, what I currently have going on, I mean, I'm doing my mix of like we do our consulting and workshops and writing, and the place to find if I’m like, always extremely on Twitter @mulegirl. I'm on LinkedIn.
A lot of people have gone to LinkedIn as the less toxic social network. so, you can find me there and then muledesign.com. Our, our company website, which is kind of neglected cause we've been busy. It's one of those things cobbler's children
[00:53:12] Todd: Yep
[00:53:13] Erika: can get in touch with us there and let’s do some stuff and I'm on Medium. You can find me on Medium. I write stuff there, but yeah, on the internet around, I haven't started my Tik Tok yet.
[00:53:31] Todd: I tried that and I just I, I couldn't get into it for whatever, I, well, I did get into it, but it took me down a rabbit hole of I'll only go on for five minutes and then I’ll go back to doing work. And then four or five hours later, I'm like, where did the day go? Where did the day go?
[00:53:45] Erika: Right
[00:53:46] Todd: So, I can't do, I can't do that anymore, but I wanted to thank you for coming on the podcast.
I really appreciate it, appreciate it, Erika. It's been a great conversation and it was great to chat with you and everything and, you know, looking forward to seeing that book. It is so I do have to ask before going to add another question here. Is there, is there going to be another edition of Conversational Design?
[00:54:14] Erika: I can't, I mean, I'm not going to commit like that's a, maybe. Maybe, maybe, I mean, get the, there've been some, you know, you've heard about the book supply chain issues.
[00:54:23] Todd: Yes
[00:54:24] Erika: if I get the current one, I think they're having pre-orders now. So, they're just going to do a batch cause like books are books are sort of scarce.
[00:54:30] Todd: Yes
[00:54:31] Erika: But just go get all the, A Book Apart books, all of them,
[00:54:34] Todd: Yeah
[00:54:35] Erika: Support all the authors, they’re all great.
[00:54:35] Todd: Yep, I have them all. So.
[00:54:39] Erika: Excellent.
[00:54:40] Todd: Yes. Yep. So, I want to thank you again for coming on and thank you listeners for tuning in to the Front End Nerdery Podcast. I'll be back next time with a new guest, new conversation about front end design development and other topics.
If you would please rate this podcast on your podcast device of choice, like, subscribe and watch on the Front End Nerdery YouTube channel. The links to transcripts and show notes are there. I'm Todd Libby, and this has been the Front End Nerdery Podcast. Thanks. And we'll see you next time.