S3:E5
[00:00:00] Todd Libby: Well, welcome to the Front End Nerdery Podcast, podcast about front end development design and a host of other things. We even delve into backend stuff too. It's crazy. The name stuck. So here I am, uh, usually I have Homer Gaines with me. He's my co-host, but he couldn't make it. Uh, he sends his regards and, um, Yeah, so basically what I have today is, and I've been waiting for this, I had to put it off for a little while 'cause I wasn't feeling good, but we have developer, teacher, self-proclaimed, and I can identify with this huge doofus you were in.
[00:00:44] Todd: Dev–developer relations as well.
[00:00:46] Jason: Yeah.
[00:00:47] Todd: Yeah. Uh, here's where the commonality really kicks in foodie.
[00:00:54] Jason: Yes.
[00:00:55] Todd: host of Learn with Jason, Jason Lengstorf. Jason, how are you?
[00:00:59] Jason: Hello. I'm doing great. Thank you so much for inviting me.
[00:01:03] Todd: Well, thank you for, uh, for joining me. Um, so with that, uh, if there's anything I missed, tell listeners a little bit about yourself.
[00:01:14] Jason: Uh, so I've been, I've been doing this for roughly 20 years. Um, Started out an agency, did some contract work as an engineer, uh, worked at IBM in the kind of the big corporate space as an architect. Uh, worked in startups and worked in the executive level. And, and these days I'm back to being a consultant, but this time I'm, I'm trying to just, you know, I really just trying to make my way in Hollywood.
[00:01:37] Jason: I wanna make more videos and have more fun doing it. So, uh, yeah, having a, having a blast out here.
[00:01:44] Todd: Very nice, very nice. So I know you from, uh, I was on, learned with Jason and we did a little, we chatted about accessibility a little bit. I had a great time. Um, and I've, you know, seen you on Twitch. We'll get into all that stuff and, uh, your Frontend Masters courses and just, you know, your time with, um, Netlify and, um, so.
[00:02:13] Todd: I've learned a little bit of stuff from you, and I want to thank you personally for that. So the first thing I wanted to talk about was content creation, and you have a course coming out soon for Astro now I. Have just heard about Astro? I haven't looked into it. I haven't had the time to look into it, but could you tell people a little bit about what you have coming up with?
[00:02:39] Todd: It's called the Astro Party course.
[00:02:43] Jason: Yes. Um, so Astro is exciting to me because I. I love building for the web and I love being able to just have a bad idea and ship it really fast and, you know, try to make my friends laugh and I've, I've felt like recently we've been getting away from, from, I. Making things easy to ship. We, we've been moving back toward like, we gotta deploy servers, we gotta think about caching and, and, you know, there's just a lot going on to get something up on the web these days.
[00:03:19] Jason: And I, I just loved how refreshingly simple it was to build something with Astro. So Astro is, is a kind of combination, static and dynamic framework. Um, by default it compiles. To just HTML and CSS doesn't ship any JavaScript by default. So you can put it up on a CDN and to me that's like the right default.
[00:03:42] Jason: And then you can opt in to any framework that you want. So if you wanna build in view spelt react, solid, plain old vanilla JS web components, you can do that. Uh, and you, you just mark the component that you want to be dynamic. And Astro will selectively hydrate it. So you just get a little bit of JavaScript instead of making the whole website JavaScript.
[00:04:03] Jason: Uh, they also just recently added the ability to add servers. So if you need something like a form submission or you've got logged in users and you need to check a cookie before you return data to the the browser, uh, you have that option as well, but it's opt in instead of making the whole website.
[00:04:20] Jason: Server full, by default, you, you still do HTML and CSS for mostly everything. And then as needed, you can add more functionality, which to me feels like the right default. That's where we want the web to be. And so I got really excited about it. Um, I, I've been friends with the Astro team for a while. I think that they are, they're, they're good people.
[00:04:40] Jason: They care about community. They're thinking about the web in a way that I think is, is future proof, um, in ways that I'm a little bit. Unconvinced of with some of the other frameworks that are out there right now. Not to, I don't want to start a whole thing about that, but, um, I feel like this, this idea of like default to HTML and CSS is the right call and everything else is additive.
[00:05:01] Jason: That's the core of progressive enhancement. That's what we've been doing since the very beginning of the web. It's gonna live forever. If you build an Astro site today and you compile it to HTML and CSS and you deploy it to CDN and you forget about it, it will continue to function until the heat death of the universe, because that's what we've decided is gonna continue to work on the internet is HTML and CSS.
[00:05:22] Jason: So all that being said, I want to help teach people about why all this stuff is cool, how to use it, and how to get back to just making fun stuff on the web. And I'm, I'm working with the, the team, um, at Badass Dev. It's Joel Hooks and, and Vojta Holik and, and, uh, and Michelle Holik. And they're just, they're so brilliant.
[00:05:42] Jason: Um, They're just like making this fun, right? So it's gonna be more of a fun course. We're gonna play, we're gonna, you know, the, the demos are all gonna be goofy and silly and, and we're just gonna try to like, make some weird internet as a teaching tool. I'm, I'm kind of sick of the straight lace stuff. I wanna, I want to, I want GeoCities back.
[00:06:00] Jason: Like, let's get strange.
[00:06:04] Todd: That is that that is right down my alley, and I'm looking forward to that actually, because everything you've just said just is, that's the way I think, you know, I've been doing this, you know, I remember when CSS wasn't around. I remember when, you know, HTML 3.2 and even before that. So that dated me.
[00:06:30] Todd: That actually carbonated me. Um, so, uh, yeah, HTML CSS I being of known for, uh, you know, accessibility. Um, that is how I would like. I think we're a little too saturated with JavaScript these days and I actually, you know, now that you've given me a good description of what Astro is, I think I'm gonna go check that out, uh, this weekend.
[00:07:06] Todd: So that's gonna be fun. Um, thank you. So your content creation, you have one of the best, I think. Development streams on Twitch because you have so much fun doing stuff and you have great guests and the the stuff you build is v. Yeah, I mean, I drop in on occasion and normally I just lurk for a little bit.
[00:07:34] Todd: But what I see is just, uh, it's so interesting and you know, when I started out, I started learning Commodore Basic on a Commodore 64.
[00:07:46] Jason: Yeah.
[00:07:47] Todd: And it just, it went from there. Um, and I had so much fun and I had, you know, I had a desire to just, I sat, I would literally sit in my room as a kid and just code for, for a day, for an entire day.
[00:08:09] Todd: My parents almost put, wanted posters out for me because, you know, I was rarely seen in the house. Um,
[00:08:16] Jason: Sure.
[00:08:18] Todd: as far as content creation goes though, if, what do you look for in content creation that piques your interest and holds your interest?
[00:08:36] Jason: Um, so I, I think there are a few different avenues of content creation and I, I think that one of the, the challenging things is for a lot of us, we're trying to do all of it at once, and that that can be overwhelming and it also leads to stuff that, that is kind of hard to stick with because it feels all over the place.
[00:08:55] Jason: And, and so when I have a problem, I want to Google the error message and I want a clear explanation of what the error message is from and how to solve it. And that is one of the most valuable types of, of, uh, content generation out there. Um, and if I look at some of my most successful posts for over time, I wrote one called How to Get Form Values Out of–or as JSON.
[00:09:19] Jason: And that post does numbers, like tens of thousands of visits every month. Um, Because it's a very relevant piece of information that people need, and it's very small and contained. Um, similarly, like there's a, a next hydration error that is, is common because it's confusing and like getting that to work.
[00:09:39] Jason: So I wrote a, a small article on why does next break like this? What is the hydration error and how do you fix it? And that post is, you know, a few hundred words and, and it gets tons and tons of traffic. It's over on the Netlify blog. Um, That's one style of just like practical. As you're building, you hit a problem.
[00:09:57] Jason: You have to Google. It's not easy to find a solution, so you just create the article that you wish you would've found. And those ones are, are so, so, so valuable. Uh, then there's the other side of it, which is the like exploration. I wanna see what's out there. I wanna see what, you know, what I could build, what's possible.
[00:10:15] Jason: And those. Don't necessarily need to be like, fine-grained, super detailed posts. I don't really like, if I'm trying to learn how real time works today, I, I, I want to be able to find the really detailed post about how to implement it, but at first I really just wanna know what it, I. Does, like what, what is it?
[00:10:34] Jason: How does it work? And, and not like how would I build a full app with it, but if I wanted to plug this in, what am I doing? Right? And so these are more like high level introductory. Imagine yourself in a world where you can build real time apps or, and imagine yourself in a world where you're not wrangling 25 data sources, whatever it is, like the problem space.
[00:10:51] Jason: Um, and those, what makes those engaging is when somebody can really think through to, like as a developer, I feel pain, right? Whenever I have to work with X, I'm like, oh, I really don't wanna do that. Right? And if you can encapsulate that moment so that when you say like, you know, this new tool makes X go away.
[00:11:13] Jason: And everybody goes, oh, thank God I can't. I hate every time that happens. I wish I never had to do that again. It just turns into this. I mean, this is one of the reasons why people talk about tailwinds so much, right? Because so many developers never like really learned CSS. And so CSS is a deep pain point for a lot of people because it's complicated.
[00:11:33] Jason: It's probably one of the most challenging programming languages that we have. I. I know people want to argue about whether or not it's a programming language, but if you can't figure it out, it's a complicated programming language, right? Like, so a lot of people never did learn how CSS really works. And it's also a social programming language because it's something you have to work with on teams.
[00:11:51] Jason: And there's a lot of, you know, the, the cascade in, in CSS is really challenging. So when somebody invents CSS or invents Tailwind, or before that, uh, Nicole Sullivan with, um, What was it called? Uh, uh Oh crap. (OOCSS) Nicole Sullivan basically invented tailwind before Adam Wathan called it Tailwind. And so when, when you invent something like this and you go out to developers and you say, Hey, you know how it's really hard to write CSS in a big code base?
[00:12:17] Jason: And everybody goes, oh yes. Oh, I hate it. It's so hard. They go, I got a thing for you. And everybody's like, oh my God, I wanna learn it. Right? So you, you get really excited about this, this thing because it's solving a real pain point. Um, and so I think that you know that, that. That's what you're looking for is like how do you empathize with a developer and understand why they like what makes somebody grumble at their desk?
[00:12:37] Jason: What makes somebody roll their eyes when they have to work with it? What makes somebody dread going to work or like really procrastinate on this one ticket at their job because they don't want to do that kind of work? Understand that pain, understand why, and then. Give them something that they can get excited about that that solves that, that problem.
[00:12:55] Jason: A lot of times that's a business, uh, but a lot of times it can also just be like a pattern. Like, Hey, do you want to never have like spaghetti code ever again? Here's a programming pattern that can clean up this particular brand of spaghetti code. And those, those articles are super popular. Like people love that stuff.
[00:13:10] Jason: Um, and then I think there's also just like storytelling, like how did you get to where you are? How did you learn the thing that you learned? It's not necessarily about a coding program as much as it is about. Like a, a way of thinking about this industry or about this job. And so a lot of my more popular articles are about stuff like, there's this one I wrote called The Progressive Disclosure of Complexity, which is a concept I borrowed out of, out of ux.
[00:13:32] Jason: Um, and just talked about how to design an API in a way that feels like you are progressively discovering things instead of being handed a bunch of, of like. Parts and said, all right, assemble it. You know, you get a fully working thing, and then as needed, you can open a hatch and figure out how the internals work.
[00:13:49] Jason: Um, and that, you know, the, so very, very long and wandering answer here. But I, I think what, what makes content creation good is understanding the purpose that you're creating the content for and steering fully into that, not trying to make. You could write a story about progressive disclosure of complexity that explains a programming pattern that could make your life easier.
[00:14:08] Jason: That also teaches you the in-depth piece of doing a tool, but that's so hyper-specific that almost nobody, it, almost nobody would apply to all three of those categories. Right. So it's, it's better to write three articles instead.
[00:14:21] Todd: Definitely, uh, Object Oriented. CSS was Nicole Sullivan,
[00:14:26] Jason: That's right. Yes.
[00:14:28] Todd: the one, and I used that for the longest time when I was doing CSS. That helped, that helped me learn CSSs actually, uh, better. Um, I had, you know, I was, you know, big CSS person back then. And then, uh, you know, that came along and that made it easier to understand for me.
[00:14:50] Todd: So,
[00:14:55] Todd: yeah, I, that, that was a great answer. I, you know, when things are broken down to, I mean, not finite. You know, finite examples or, you know, specific, um, you know, hundreds of specific little tiny tidbits, but, you know, sizable chunks that I can myself parse. Um, that makes things, you know, so much easier for me.
[00:15:27] Todd: And I know a, a few people let you know. Whether it be a cognitive thing or just the way that learning is so much easier that way,
[00:15:38] Jason: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:39] Todd: that works the best with that. I wanted to segue into teaching because a lot of what your content is is also teaching. And you have, you know, you have the stuff on front end, masters, you have the stuff on, uh, learned with Jason, um, via website.
[00:16:02] Todd: And tell us a little bit about, um, Learn with Jason, the website, you know, and what you know you have going on there. And I definitely, um, would like to know, you know, what, um, if anything, uh, your style, I guess, of teaching and how you like to approach, uh, teaching people.
[00:16:32] Jason: Yeah, well, let me start with this. Yeah. The style and approach. So I think there are a million different ways that you can teach and, and there are some that have been like deeply researched and, and are very, uh, Like specific pedagogical, you should do it like this. I don't do that. I do things in a way less structured way, but what I've, what I've learned about myself is I like to learn by immersing myself in something and I. Kind of seeing it happen and then going back to the beginning and trying it again with the context of like having seen everything that it does. So when I was a kid, what I used to do is I would, um, if I was gonna get, like when I started PHP for example, I didn't just start writing PHP actually before I wrote any PHP at all, I read the entire PHP manual. And my reasoning for that wasn't that I thought that was gonna teach me PHP, it was that it was gonna put into my head. All of this jargon and context and, and like different words and, and stuff like that, that was gonna be common so that when somebody talked about a PHP concept, I wasn't gonna say, wait, what was that word?
[00:17:48] Jason: I was gonna say, oh wait, I saw that. Uh, I don't know what it means, but I know that that's a PHP thing, right? So it helped me understand when, when I wasn't understanding because I hadn't learned it yet, versus when I wasn't understanding because somebody was using words that didn't make any sense.
[00:18:01] Jason: Because a lot of learning out there is somebody, like, there's jargon and sometimes that jargon is, is necessary. And sometimes that jargon is somebody just throwing acronyms around and, and you know, there's probably a better article out there because you don't need to learn 5 million acronyms to understand how code works.
[00:18:16] Jason: Um, So my, my approach to teaching has always been very much ride along with me. I'm going to build this, you're gonna see me build it live. I'm gonna talk through what I'm doing, but it's not workshop style where I'll give you an exercise and then wait for you to complete the exercise and then walk through the solution.
[00:18:31] Jason: It's more of a ride along, you're, you're here, almo. And when I teach a workshop, like at a Frontend Masters, I, I even tell people, I'm like, I actually would encourage you to sort of watch this and then go home and watch the recording. Again, so that you can pause it and rewind and do these exercises there.
[00:18:51] Jason: Um, because the first time you're just letting, you're letting yourself marinate in this new concept and, and trying to let a few of the things sink in so that you've got enough context that you know what to Google. You understand words that you didn't know before. Um, or maybe you've seen like, oh yeah, he did a thing with the.
[00:19:08] Jason: The way that that front matter was set up that I, I should go look up and then, you know, to Google front matter where you may not have known that before. Um, so I, I very much believe in the ride along. And then that informs a lot of what I do in, in Learn with Jason as well because I, I have found that once you get beyond beginner, and I would say that my stuff is, is targeted more toward like the intermediate and, and senior developers.
[00:19:34] Jason: Once you get beyond beginner, you don't learn you, it's very hard to find like a specific article that explains exactly what you're trying to learn. You, you instead have to sort of piece together the thing you're trying to do by abstracting out lessons from lots of different pieces of content. And a lot of how I've seen people advance and a lot of how I've advanced is by watching somebody who knows more than me build something and then I see them do something.
[00:19:58] Jason: I'm like, wait, wait, stop. You just did a thing. Tell me what that is. And then they'll, they'll explain like, why they, this is how I learned, like reducers or how I learned, um, you know, uh, uh, like l r u caches or things like, and don't worry about these words, I'm just saying words. Uh, but the, the, like, each of these things that I learned was because a developer who knew more than me was working through a problem and they solved the problem.
[00:20:20] Jason: That would've taken me hundreds of lines in a few. And then I was like, what? How? Like, what did you do here? And then they break down this concept and like, they're not gonna write an article on that because it's so niche and so, so subtle. And I, I remember, this is how I learned to cook as well, because when you work in a kitchen, you know how to cook.
[00:20:41] Jason: You can get a recipe and you can follow that recipe. But then when you watch an experienced cook make that same recipe, you're gonna see 'em do something where they're like, They, they move the knife in a certain way, or they add, they like, don't just add the salt in one stage. They add the salt at various stages throughout the, the prep.
[00:20:58] Jason: And you're like, wait, I thought this just needed a tablespoon of salt. And it's like, well, no, no, you got salt at every stage. It's like, oh, I didn't know that. And the recipe doesn't tell you that. The recipe just tells you you need a tablespoon of salt. So, When you watch somebody program, it's the same thing when, when you watch somebody code, they'll tell you, you know, build a loop and do the thing and do this, and then you watch 'em build it, and you see these subtleties in, in what they've done.
[00:21:19] Jason: And it's all these little tricks that they've picked up through years and years of experience. And so watching somebody. So valuable for picking up those things that become your wisdom as a programmer. It's the little tricks of the trade, and it's something that I feel like we lost with the, um, like apprenticeship, journeyman kind of model of, of, uh, trade you don't spend a lot of time, especially in this remote first world, you don't get a lot of time to sit next to somebody and watch them work and say like, wait, what was that right?
[00:21:53] Jason: And I think that's why I love Twitch, and that's why I love Learn with Jason is I'm, I'm with somebody who knows more than me about a topic and they're walking me through something and I get to ask them, why'd you do it like that? Why would you, why would you make this choice? And I just get to pick up all these little tidbits of wisdom, of, of experience.
[00:22:09] Jason: And the way that I formatted the show is hopefully to let the audience get those same moments of like, wait, what was that? How did that work? And then they're able to take these little bits of, of extra tricks of the trade that make them better at their day-to-day job. Even if, you know, if they're watching you and I talk about color accessibility, maybe they pick up a little tip about CSS that they take back to work and it has nothing to do with their color accessibility, but they just got better at CSS because of it.
[00:22:32] Jason: Those are the things that I think are really important about teaching and, and that's sort of what I'm leaning toward is, is how do we recreate a little bit of the journeyman model where people get to watch along as somebody who's got more experience does their job.
[00:22:45] Todd: Yeah, definitely. No, that, that's great. That, yeah, I, you know, that, that style definitely fits in with how I learn
[00:22:56] Jason: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:56] Todd: and, and, and I learned best by doing.
[00:23:00] Jason: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:00] Todd: And repetition. I think, you know, a lot of us, you know, a lot of us that do this stuff, they have picked stuff up like that. Um, I would've never have been able to get through PHP three, which is partially why I have a lot of gray hair.
[00:23:17] Todd: Um, without having done things. Over and over and making mistakes over and over until finally I was like, boom. Oh, I got this right. Finally, what did I do? Oh, there's the example. This is what I was missing. So, um, and a lot of this gray hair too is accessibility auditing, but I won't go into that.
[00:23:43] Jason: Sure go.
[00:23:44] Todd: Um, so
[00:23:51] Todd: the. You have, you know, you have your content, you have your learning, you have all this great stuff. What's. For you, what is the best part of doing all this, doing all this teaching and all the content creation? What is the one thing that you say after, you know, after you do a stream or you put out a, a, an article and say, this is why I do this, this is why I love doing this.
[00:24:24] Jason: I have two. Um, so the. The first one, and the reason that I keep coming back to, to teaching in general is the, the moment where you see somebody have that light bulb moment, like, and you can watch this happen when you're teaching somebody something that's new to them and you watch the dot connect and their eyes light up and, and you, you see them build that new pathway in their brain.
[00:24:49] Jason: You just know, you know that that's gonna be great and, and. For me, that moment of helping somebody connect to the next level of their career, whether that's through building a new skill or whether that's through making an intro so they can get that next job. Seeing somebody grow as a direct result of your small contribution is so, so rewarding.
[00:25:11] Jason: Like there are so many people who, um, Will tell stories about how, like I introduced them to somebody and that led to them getting a, a job interview that has led to them getting to where they are today. And I, I'm not like out there actively seeking this. I'm just, you know, if I see somebody who's doing good work, I wanna help 'em do more of it.
[00:25:27] Jason: And I'm, you know, telling my friends about these great people that I'm meeting. Uh, but then you find out later that, that like helped kick off somebody's career or that they learned a skill from you that they were able to apply into a thing that got them like a round of funding. Um, those moments are like, I don't care what I do in my career, what I care about is that there's a whole bunch of people who will, will look back at their journey and like one step of it was facilitated by me.
[00:25:51] Jason: And that's, that's legacy, right? Like that's making the industry a better place. Um, so that, that's like the, the majority of it. And then the other part of it, and this is newer, is making this, this content that I'm making, um, has opened the door for me to work on more like. Polished production. So I get to work on more skits, more, um, you know, we're scripting things, we're bringing in actual film crews, and that is the most fun that I've ever had in a job is, is trying to, I.
[00:26:25] Jason: Write a script about programming that's funny enough that if we just said it, it would be funny. And then also working with a team to build out a set and like visually tell this story in a way that's really fun. Um, I've never, I'd never had a chance to do anything like that. And I'm, I'm realizing that this is, I I'm always been a theater kid at heart, right?
[00:26:44] Jason: Like I was in a band, I was the front man of the band. Uh, and, and I've always tried to find, you know, I love getting up on stage and, and giving presentations or teaching workshops. Uh, so I'm just a ham. I. And getting the opportunity to do these, these more like theatrical things, like at what, what are starting to feel like small movies is so, so much fun and so rewarding and, and, uh, I'm gonna try to do as much of that as I possibly can.
[00:27:11] Todd: Yeah. No, that's, that's, that's awesome. Um, As far as getting into content creation. So here, here's just a question that just popped up into my head. What would you tell somebody that's looking to get into content creation? That, you know, they have, they're, they're looking to do something. They're looking for a way to take, you know, what they're doing and they want to, you know, say, bring it on Twitch and, know, Start that ball rolling.
[00:27:46] Todd: What would you say to somebody starting out in content creation?
[00:27:50] Jason: J just start. Um, there are millions and millions of reasons not to start and the none of them are good, uh, waiting until you have the right camera, waiting until you have the perfect idea, waiting until you polish the idea more. All of those things will. Kind of help with making better content. But what really helps with making better content is making content.
[00:28:14] Jason: Um, every rep you will make a thing. You'll look at it and you'll go, I'm gonna do this differently next time. And then you just get the reps and you keep producing and you keep releasing. And every single time you're gonna learn something. Like, I just did a keynote where I was playing with, uh, I, I, I did it without a slide deck.
[00:28:30] Jason: I instead I did it. Almost like a YouTube video where I would like, did a bunch of different camera angles and, and was just playing, right? I was trying to, trying something new. The whole thing made me cringe. I like, I, as I was watching it, I was like, I cannot believe I did this. This is so corny. Um, but people responded to it and I learned, I learned what they liked and I learned what nobody said anything about.
[00:28:49] Jason: And like, I also learned that sometimes I'm gonna feel corny and that's okay. Like, you know, sometimes you just have to make something that makes you cringe a little bit because you're, you, of course, you think you're corny. Like you can never look at yourself with the same neutral eyes that you look at any of your colleagues with, right?
[00:29:04] Jason: And so you getting up on stage and saying a thing automatically feels worse than if the, if somebody else on your team got up and said exactly the same thing. Um, so just push play If you want to get on Twitch, don't wait until you get a new webcam. Don't, you know, use your phone. Like the, if you've got an iPhone, it's got continuity cam.
[00:29:23] Jason: That is a better webcam than the vast majority of cameras you can buy. And you've already got one. You can just start right now. You don't need a fancy mic, you don't need a custom twitch setup. You can literally just push play. There's an app from Twitch that you can download now, you can use YouTube live, which is just point your phone at yourself and all of those will let you start creating.
[00:29:42] Jason: And then as you continue to create, as you build consistency, you're gonna have ideas and you're gonna. Fix it, right? You're gonna, oh, I could do this better. And you're gonna do that. And then you can, you're gonna learn that, oh, well there's this, this thing I could do with the camera. Oh, well, to do that, I need a better camera.
[00:29:56] Jason: And like, you'll upgrade as you go. Like, if you look at my first episode to learn with Jason, they're on a MacBook Pro webcam, like just the built-in camera on the, on the computer. There's no mic, uh, no design. It's just me and a Zoom call. I'm sharing my desktop. I've got the Zoom window of my guest, like floated over the screen.
[00:30:13] Jason: And that's it. That's the whole show. That's good. Like that let me learn and it let me figure out the format. And then when I figured out the format, I invested in designing the format. Right. But it took me a dozen or several dozen shows before I really started designing. And like if you look at the show today versus where it started in 2018 and then pull a random episode from 2019, they look like completely different shows.
[00:30:37] Jason: It's always been the, like, I've been refining that same format and, and you know, it didn't emerge as what it is today. It's been a long journey of, of small refinements.
[00:30:47] Todd: Mm-hmm. That's exactly how I've done it. I started with a $40, I think, yeah, $40. Boom mic, uh, know, a, a light and you know, just the, the MacBook camera. And I just said, you know what, I'm just gonna do it. I did it. People watched, people liked what I did, kept doing it. I have a be, you know, I have a better mic now.
[00:31:14] Todd: I have sort of a decent setup. I. Low budget production here. I don't need much. I don't need much. You know, do I want to have the setups that I see, you know, folks like you, James, quick, you know, you know, all these other great Twitch streamers have. Sure. I wouldn't mind having that. I would love to have one of that someday.
[00:31:39] Todd: I, I'm getting by what I, with what I have now and you know, that, that, that works for me.
[00:31:44] Jason: And I think it's such an important thing to point out that like. The gear is a distraction. You know, you can make, people have made Hollywood movies on iPhones. It's, you know, the, the constraints make you creative and the gear is a hobby for me. Like I, I get new gear, if you like, spending lots of money to be frustrated by things not functioning well together.
[00:32:07] Jason: Like I've, I've got, I'm surrounded right now by probably, I don't know, $25,000 worth of, of AV equipment. But it's because it's fun for me, right? And, and like all of this gear that I've bought, none of it is important. I could go back to using my iPhone or using my MacBook camera, and I would still be making learn with Jason.
[00:32:28] Jason: Like the show would be the same. I.
[00:32:30] Todd: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:30] Jason: It just, this, this gear for me is a way to play. It's a way to, to, you know, and, and like, I use it for things that aren't learned with Jason. I don't have all this gear just for the, just for the stream. But it's, it, it's a way, it like unlocks different ways for me to be creative, but I also find it to be a little bit, um, like.
[00:32:50] Jason: Restrictive because sometimes I start thinking of a thing I wanna make, and I know how good my gear is for certain shots, and then I'm thinking about this like, oh, I wanna make a time lapse of me working at my computer, but I don't want it to be static. I want it to move. And I'm like, oh, you know what? I need to buy as a slider.
[00:33:06] Jason: And then I'm looking at another $3,500 piece of gear so that I can buy a camera slider. I'm like, why am I do No, just make the video. Nobody cares about this dynamic shot of of you doing a time-lapse at your computer. You'll enjoy that shot, but if the content sucks, nobody's gonna watch that video so they can see your dynamic slider shot.
[00:33:23] Jason: Like it doesn't matter. Make something good. And if you want to play with gear, play with gear, but don't let it stop you from making the thing.
[00:33:30] Todd: Mm-hmm. Definitely. Yeah, it, it's, I've had people say, oh, you should get this and this, and it's like, well, I, you know, I'm fine with what I get. You know, I, and lately I haven't been on, you know, streaming for a while, but, um, hopefully that's gonna change starting next week if I can get out of this, you know, string of great luck that I've had with surgeries and, and being sick.
[00:33:57] Todd: But, um, you know, it just, it works for me and I've told people too, you know, it, you don't need the be, you don't need. You know, all this fancy stuff. Use with, you know, work with what you have, and then if you want to get to that point, go for it. Like you said, you know, upgrade. But if you, you know, if you want to do it now, work with what you have and just do it.
[00:34:23] Todd: You know, it's like
[00:34:25] Jason: Right,
[00:34:26] Todd: I, I've kind of, you know, and I'm going to do this. I. Do this with accessibility. It's the Nike method. Just do it.
[00:34:37] Jason: right.
[00:34:38] Todd: Um,
[00:34:40] Jason: Well, and I think like I, I. I, I should also point out I didn't invest in my gear until I was making money from my content. So I, I also think it's important to not, like, don't benchmark against somebody like me who is a professional content creator. If you're, if you're trying to start, like I. Of course, I, I, of course, I invest in my gear, like I'm getting paid by companies to go make content, right?
[00:35:04] Jason: So it makes sense for me to reinvest in the, in the gear to let me make better content because it lets me get bigger contracts. So eventually, sure it's worth it, investing in your gear. But, but I didn't spend a penny on gear until I had. A different, like I had a lot, I had a lot of additional investment into the show before I started investing in gear.
[00:35:29] Todd: Yeah. Yeah, that, that's a good, you know, point to make is, you know, if, if you are a full-time professional content creator, you're probably going to have sponsors. You're probably gonna have money backing you, and that's why you're professional content creator. Someone like me, I don't have sponsors. I'm not looking actively for sponsors, so I'm gonna have.
[00:35:53] Todd: You know, just this, I think this mic was $249. I invested in this mic. I love this mic. It's a U s B mic and it, I love it. I have, you know, free software that I have with it, you know, I have just my MacBook, um, you know, and that works for me. All I do is go on and I do a little bit of code and make things accessible.
[00:36:14] Todd: Try to teach somebody how to, you know, make something accessible and boom. Uh, my, my job is done. I'm not, you know, sponsored by, you know, several companies and, and doing this for a living. And, you know, of course my money goes into lobsters, so,
[00:36:37] Jason: Which, I mean, let's be honest, is a better investment.
[00:36:40] Todd: oh, it's, it's far and above the best investment I can make as an individual coming from where I come from. So, um, You know, with that, uh, I'm gonna swing over to, you know, something that I've been definitely looking forward to talking to you about, and that's food and cooking because we are, we are, we are brethren in this, in this, uh, space.
[00:37:07] Todd: So from what I've read, On your what? Where was it? Some, uh, where did I see, oh, I saw this on your, um, Frontend Masters, uh, teacher page. The Undefeated Smash Burger Champ. So here's the deal. I love me a good smash burger, and I want to hear from Jason. What is the ideal smash burger and how do you make it?
[00:37:41] Jason: Uh, the, the ideal smashburger is, Whichever one makes you happy. So I actually switch up, uh, based on my mood, right? Um, my default though is I'm doing a, a two and a half ounce. Ball of hamburger, take two of those, and you get your griddle up to about 450, 500 degrees and smash it as flat as you can. And the reason that you're doing that is you're trying to, you want the burger to cook all on one side and you're trying to build up as much of that burger crust as you can.
[00:38:14] Jason: And then I use a, a burger seasoning. Um, Joel Hooks got me turned onto this, but it's a, uh, blend of salt pepper, m s g onion powder, and garlic powder. To build out like a kind of a new mommy layer on the burger. So you salt the, you know, salt the burgers, and then really, really simple on the bun. Toast 'em on the griddle, shredded iceberg lettuce on the bottom to act as a moisture barrier so that you grease from your burger.
[00:38:40] Jason: Doesn't like turn your bottom bun into a sheet of tissue paper. Uh, American cheese, burger, American cheese. Little bit of pickle, not a little bit of pickle. A lot of pickle. Uh, And I, I'll take some like diced white onion and sometimes mix that in with a lettuce, or I'll put it on top if I'm feeling a little more crunch.
[00:38:59] Jason: Um, and then I make a burger sauce that is, uh, my burger sauce is a little extra, but it's because I have fun making it. But, you know, you can make your own mayonnaise and then put, uh, I'll put some fish sauce in it. I'll put some pickle brine in it. Um, dice up, you know, some, some. You know, different little crunchy bits for a little bit of extra flavor.
[00:39:18] Jason: You can put some heat in it if you want a little ketchup. Uh, or if you want to get really extra, you can put a little tomato paste and a little sugar in to make a ketchup. Like kind of go ketchupy. And you, you end up with this like very, it's fry sauce. It's just fry sauce. You could make it with ketchup, mustard, and, and mayo.
[00:39:34] Jason: Uh, but I'm like, no, no, I'm gonna make it my own. So I think it's, uh, but that's it. That's the whole burger. Right. And, and to me, I love that. Um, It's so simple, and I think one of the things that I've learned, you can tell me if you agree with this, but as I've gotten more experience as a, as a cook, as well as as a coder, I started out.
[00:39:55] Jason: Very simple because I didn't know how anything worked. And then as I started to learn, I started like, oh yeah, like more ingredients on the burger. I want like the thick burger, I want the fried onion ring, and then I want the avocado and the whatever, and the burger's like, you know, six inches, seven inches tall, um, can't eat it, you know, it's impossible.
[00:40:12] Jason: Like the, you gotta stab the knife through it to get it to not fall apart before it gets to your table. Then as I got more experienced, I was like, no, no, no, I just want like a, I just want a burger with nothing on it. Like I just want a really good burger. Right? Um, and so I think that, that in code, I did the same thing.
[00:40:26] Jason: I was like, oh, I gotta add all these tools. I gotta add this layer, add that layer. And now I'm just like, I just want like some HTML and CSS that makes me smile when I see it on the internet. Um, And so, but so, so my, my burger approach, that's like my default if I'm not thinking about it very hard. That's what I wanna make.
[00:40:41] Jason: I've got friends coming over, somebody's, you know, challenging me to a, a burger battle, like a Sarah Drasner wants to do a sous burger, right? This is, this is where this all started. My, my undefeated smash burger champ is because, We challenged each other to a burger off. And then Sarah has made convenient excuses Drasner to not show up for three years.
[00:40:59] Jason: Uh, but I think that's finally happening. I think we're finally gonna get the, the Burger Showdown, uh, in the books here. But I also have done, there's, I, it's named after a. A state, I think. But if you take the smash burger and you put your, uh, your white onions on top of the burger before you smash and you kind of smash the onions into the burger, that's also really good because the, uh, when you flip the burger, the, the fat from the beef will kind of saute the onions right there on the griddle.
[00:41:31] Jason: Oh, it's so good. It's so nice.
[00:41:34] Todd: yes. I've heard of that. Um, I agree with that. That's, that is a mark of a good smashburger, definitely. And. I got a lot of beef in the fridge that I'm gonna be making. I'm gonna be cooking tonight. I hope so. Um, I recently, and I think we talked about this in your discord, and we definitely got to, you know, get that up there, um, where I use, uh, brisket, short rib and
[00:42:13] Jason: Hmm.
[00:42:15] Todd: I bought a meat grinder at, of all places, Cabela's, I think the thing was $199 or $149, but that thing I tell you, it's the Bugatti of meat grinders. I made six pounds of beef and I gr ground it all in like, I don't know, 20, 30 minutes.
[00:42:41] Jason: Oh, nice.
[00:42:43] Todd: I had my sous chef, my, my girlfriend's daughter at the, she was weighing it out and I go, make sure these are all four ounces.
[00:42:52] Todd: And boom, she was hitting the mark, hitting the mark. I said, you know what, you should do this for a living. You're, you're just right on. So, you know, we're, we're doing burgers in just the right amount of salt and pepper. The right amount of ingredient. I make my own barbecue sauce, you know, ketchup based, vinegar based, you know, a little bit of both.
[00:43:18] Todd: And I have some secret ingredients that I'll put in on occasion,
[00:43:25] Jason: Ooh.
[00:43:26] Todd: a little, you know, Chipotle powder,
[00:43:28] Jason: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:29] Todd: this, a little of that. Um, if you can get your hands on a good maple syrup and you want a
[00:43:35] Jason: Oh yeah.
[00:43:38] Todd: But, um, I love a good burger. Just a simple burger. Um, just a simple, you know, the burger, the lettuce, like you said on the bottom, the burger, you know, an 80/20 blend or, you know, a a, a blend of a try blend and just, you know, onion and maybe a tomato.
[00:44:06] Todd: That's all you need. And a, and a good sauce. And a good sauce. Like I buy Kewpie Mayo because I love the Japanese style Kewpie Mayo, because it's just, it's made out the egg yolk, I believe. Not the egg white, like the Americanized version that is,
[00:44:24] Jason: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:44:26] Todd: you know, if I want to go out, I'll make my own mayo, but usually I'll just, you know, Kewpie Mayo.
[00:44:34] Todd: A little ketchup, a little mustard, a little Worcestershire sauce and boom, you know.
[00:44:43] Jason: I do love the Kewpie. I, I personally, I go Duke's, I think Duke's Mayo is, uh, is killer. Um, but I, I'll tell you, when I learned that you could make your own mayo. The, the trick with making your own mayo is you have to have an immersion blender. Like, if you have an immersion blender, it takes three seconds to make mayonnaise, and it's incredibly, it's what three ingredients.
[00:45:04] Jason: Like you. You crack an egg into the bottom of a jar, pour in a cup of olive oil, uh, add a little, like a teaspoon of Dijon mustard and hit that with a, an immersion blender and you've got mayonnaise. It's magical,
[00:45:15] Todd: Yeah. Oh yeah.
[00:45:16] Jason: makes you feel like a chef so fast.
[00:45:18] Todd: Yes it does. Yes it does.
[00:45:21] Jason: more olive oil. Now you made your own aioli make mix in a little bit of, of like different spices and powders.
[00:45:26] Jason: Now you've got a flavored aioli. Put a little garlic in there, garlic aioli, you're like a dang chef, right? And, and it, it's one of those moments where I realized cooking, like good cooking is very similar to anything else. Where when you, when you're outside of it, you look at it and you think people who do that know so much and they can just do so many things.
[00:45:48] Jason: And as you start to get deeper into it, you realize it's all like the same 20 ingredients. Then you just learn tricks for making it do different things. Like an immersion blender to emulsify. You do that with a good salad dressing. You do that with mayonnaise, you do that with, uh, you know, a lot of your sauces, and it's exactly the same technique, just a different set of ingredients, and you get a.
[00:46:09] Jason: A magical dish that feels hard. Or like the first time I made a, a beurre blanc or a hollandaise sauce or something like that, I was like, oh, I don't know. That's like French cooking. That's a lot. And then I did it and I was like, okay, you can screw this up. Like you can, you know, you can get it to break or whatever, but if you just go slow, they're exactly the same thing.
[00:46:27] Jason: And they taste incredible. And your friends think you're a genius and you didn't do anything like, Intensely challenging. You just have to, you just have to like try it a couple times and figure out where the, where it breaks and why it breaks and how you can fix it.
[00:46:42] Todd: yeah, definitely. And let me tell you, I broken a lot of sauces in my day, a lot. And
[00:46:49] Jason: And to anybody who doesn't know what that means. If you, if when you're making like a creamy sauce, you can, uh, you can cause them to kind of split into like a watery bit and a, and a chunky bit, and they're not very appetizing looking. They still taste the same, but you don't want to eat it.
[00:47:04] Todd: No, definitely you don't want to eat it. You don't want to eat it. Um, and I. For, okay. So for me, you know, through my life, cooking has been, uh, something that I've fallen back on and been like, oh, you know, I can take a break from all this work that I do, all this coding that I do, all this accessibility work I do, and I can go into my kitchen and I can make, you know, I can.
[00:47:33] Todd: I can take my immersion blender and I can whip out a great barbecue sauce that I, I think that, geez, this, this is like Michelin star barbecue sauce. You know when it's, in fact, you know, everybody's, everybody's like, oh, this is pretty good. But, you know, I have one person in the house who still likes that sweet baby raised stuff, but,
[00:47:58] Jason: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:59] Todd: I won't go into that. Uh, one day I will reign over Sweet Baby Ray’s. Um, but you know, I, I, it's that one little piece of like, oh, this is just, this is the break I needed. And I think, you know, I've come out of a long bout of, and I think, you know, we've all gone through this burnout.
[00:48:28] Jason: Mm.
[00:48:31] Todd: I don't know about you, but when I cook it's like all the stuff that we do is just, it's, it's off to the side for a while. It's just, you know, it's me and, and the grill, or you know, me in the kitchen, I. Is there, you know, do you find a little bit of peace when you're not doing content creation or teaching or coding?
[00:48:56] Todd: Do you find, do you retreat to the kitchen? Do you retreat to the grill?
[00:49:01] Jason: I, so I've never really thought about it, but yes, I, so I burned out so hard that I tried to burn my life down in 2012, 2013. Um, I was running an agency. I'd gotten myself so stressed out that like my beard had started falling out in clumps, and it was, it was a mess. Like it was bad. Uh, stress induced alopecia.
[00:49:22] Jason: Turns out that's a thing. And I, um, so I sold my agency and I just disappeared. I went to Alaska. I was like, I gotta be done with everything. I gotta be disconnected. So I had a couple friends. We went and took this trip and I just cooked the whole time. We, we had a boat, um, we were staying at, it was somebody who knew way more about being outside than I do, and they had a cabin up in Alaska and a boat and some crab traps.
[00:49:48] Jason: And so we went out every day into the ocean. We drop crab traps. We'd pull in $300 worth of dungeness crab that apparently you just get to eat because, uh, you have a, a local's license or something if you're up in that part of Alaska. And then I would, you know, I'd pull in the traps. We'd kill and clean and cook the crab I made.
[00:50:09] Jason: Crab salad made, uh, you know, did steam crab legs did, uh, we went and foraged local berries and made like jams and, you know, just had this, this really incredible few weeks of, of, I don't know if we bought any food. I think we, we gathered, hunted and gathered all of our food for a couple of weeks, and that experience for me was exactly what I had needed to just fully disconnect from everything.
[00:50:36] Jason: And that distance that it created where I wasn't, like, I didn't have to buy things, so I wasn't thinking about whether or not I was making money, and I was just, it was just me and this food. And like, could I make something that I was proud of with just my hands in the tools in this kitchen? And it, it helps put things in perspective for me where I'm, I'm realizing that all this stuff we're doing, It's important, but it's not that important.
[00:51:08] Jason: It's just a job. And if we didn't do this, we would do something else. If I didn't work in tech, I would work in, I don't know, maybe I'd be in publishing or maybe I'd be back in food service or who knows, right? But I would have a different job. It's just a job. And I would find a way to get by and I would find a way to make a living.
[00:51:25] Jason: And maybe it would be a different living. Maybe it would be better. Maybe it would be worse. Who knows? Um, I wouldn't be a different person. Right? Like it, me being a programmer isn't who I am. It's just the job I do. And if I was a, a chef or a, you know, wall Street finance person or whatever, like I, it'd be the same.
[00:51:46] Jason: That's my job. It's not who I am. And I think that cooking helps remind me of that because I love to cook. I'm not a chef. I've never been a chef. I've worked as a line cook, I've worked as a prep cook and I've had a lot of jobs in food service, but I've never been a chef. But I love to cook and I think I'm good at it.
[00:52:02] Jason: And I, when I do these food parties, you know, I'll bring people over, do dinner parties or barbecues or whatever it is. Those moments. I feel just as good about those moments as I do when I ship a huge project at work or when I, you know, find out that somebody I know was able to get a job. You know, maybe I helped 'em get an intro or something.
[00:52:26] Jason: Like, all of these things feel great and none of 'em have anything to do with like the specific labor. It's just these moments of, of like connection and, and attention and care. Um, and I, I, I like food because food is, One of the simplest ways to get that feeling of, of attention and connection and care.
[00:52:43] Jason: Like, if you care about food, you can make a bologna sandwich. Absolutely incredible. Um, and, and like that's, I think that's the part that feels magic to me is it, it just, it gimme a loaf of Wonder Bread and a, and Oscar Meyer Bologna. And I'll make you a killer sandwich. I really will. Um, because I, because I care, like, I, I, one of my favorite quotes that you might have heard this one.
[00:53:03] Jason: Um, Is the, the secret to, to good food is to find a chef who loves the food more than they love you, because they're gonna, they're not gonna worry about your health. They're gonna make the best dish, and that includes a full stick of butter
[00:53:20] Todd: Exactly. Oh, yes, yes. And that's the French style. Use all the butter
[00:53:28] Jason: indeed.
[00:53:29] Todd: that is, um, yeah. 'cause you know, food like, So I haven't been on the conference speaking circuit for very long, a little over a year now, and I find that every conference I've been to, food is the one thing that brings everybody together.
[00:53:50] Todd: So your, dinner, who, you know, whether you get a group of people and you go out and it's food. So I was at KCDC, um, last week, couple weeks ago. God, time flies. Um, And it was just barbecue.
[00:54:09] Jason: Mm-hmm.
[00:54:10] Todd: Oh, the, the withdrawals are real, let me tell you. Burnt Kansas City barbecued, burnt ends and brisket withdrawal.
[00:54:20] Todd: I tweeted this out yesterday is real. It's a thing. Um, but food, I think food, bringing people together that, you know, I, I've met a ton of people, great people over food and that's the, I look forward to like, for conferences and stuff is going out, having dinner, you know, speaking dinner with people that I normally wouldn't eat.
[00:54:52] Todd: Um, and that applies to real life. Like, uh, I think I told you I may be in your neck of the woods at some point. Towards the end of the year and I said, we, we gotta get together. We gotta get together. And it doesn't even have to be a battle. We could just do burgers. That I think that would be great because it brings people together.
[00:55:13] Todd: I, you know, I, I admire what you, you've done with, you know, teaching content creation and everything that you do. And I think, you know, standing with you at a grill, flipping burgers, You know, what better way to, you know, put the, put the work stuff behind and
[00:55:36] Jason: That's right.
[00:55:37] Todd: sit down and make a great burger, and eat a great burger, you know, and have great conversation over that.
[00:55:45] Todd: So,
[00:55:45] Jason: Absolutely.
[00:55:47] Todd: you know, hopefully, you know, as, as the year progresses that that, uh, opportunity will, will come. Don't ha. I don't have the specifics yet, but that looks like it's right now maybe. Um, but with that, this has been a great conversation. Um, I thank you for coming on and before we go, Is there anything else that you'd like to, to chat about or talk about or put out?
[00:56:23] Todd: There can be anything. Shameless plugs. Go for it. The, the, the floor is yours.
[00:56:29] Jason: All right. I, I got, I got three things. Um, first please just go out and make fun stuff like we're the, we're getting too serious in tech where we're, we're talking about everything, like it needs to be massive. Permanent future-proof scale, please just go make something terrible that breaks if more than three people are looking at, at the same time, like just have fun, go play.
[00:56:51] Jason: Uh, we we're missing the, the playfulness that I think made the web so magical in the first place. And I just wanna see more of it. Um, I. Second, come hang out with me on my show. Uh, I, I do Learn with Jason twice a week. Uh, the episodes are on Thursdays, and then I do like a casual hangout thing on Tuesdays.
[00:57:09] Jason: I would, I would love to see more people there and just talk about whatever you want. It's, it's very, very fun. Come learn with me. We're goofing around. Uh, and then the, the third thing is, um, If you want to work together, like this is my shameless plug. I'm, I'm a consultant now. So if you want to, if you wanna make stuff, you want to, you wanna build things, you got a company hit me up.
[00:57:30] Jason: 'cause I'm looking for clients and I'm always excited to work with you.
[00:57:33] Todd: Awesome. Jason, where can people find you online?
[00:57:39] Jason: Uh, learnwithjason.dev or lwj.dev is a shortcut there. Um, or if you wanna find more information, you can find me at jason.energy/links Has all my social stuff.
[00:57:51] Todd: Cool. Very cool. Um, and you have that Astro course. Is that out or is that coming out?
[00:57:59] Jason: That's coming. So if you go to Astro Party, you can get on the wait list. We're gonna start getting some tips, um, like some educational material for free about Astro is gonna be coming through that site. Uh, all of which will culminate in more of like a big. Paid course. Um, but yeah, there'll be tons and tons of free information if you are not able.
[00:58:17] Jason: And then we'll also make sure that we do things like purchasing power parody so that if you're in a country that doesn't have the, the, uh, spending power of the US dollar, we'll make sure you can still afford it.
[00:58:26] Todd: Cool. That's awesome. Jason. Thank you so much for joining me today. I had a great conversation. I knew this would be a great conversation, not just because of the food of course, but um, and, you know, hopefully we can get together towards the end of the year. I can bring up some lobsters for Maine and can, we can have a fun time.
[00:58:51] Jason: Yeah. Well, Todd, thank you so much for having me. This was, this was a blast. I always, I, I treasure conversations like these where we can talk a little bit about the meta of things and, and so this was super fun for me and yeah, hopefully I see you out here.
[00:59:04] Todd: Awesome. Thank you. So this has been the Front End Nerdery podcast. I am Todd, and we will see you next time with who knows who's the guest gonna be. I have so many people that, uh, I have lined up and, you know, uh, hopefully we'll see Homer back. Uh, Homer, we miss you. And, uh, definitely, um, stay tuned for the next episode, whenever that'll be.
[00:59:30] Todd: Hopefully I can get some of these that are in the can pumped out. So, um, again, thank you. This has been the Front End Nerder–Nerdery Podcast, and we'll see you next time. Thank you.